Long Matches?

[pandemic]

Would any of our local promoters consider extending some of the matches to a longer time limit?

[Vic Venom]

The problem with that is fans nowadays, especially the younger ones, have been conditioned to tune out anything past 10-15 minutes. Personally I don't mind long matches (Mitsuhara Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada from 1994 went 35 minutes and is one of my favorite matches, in addition to countless ROH classics).

[amaraharris15]

I wouldn't mind a Good old Fashion Iron Man Match that went 30-60 minutes

But thats just me

[storey83]

Okay, I totally understand the love fest for ROH sometimes. There stuff from around 2004-early 2007 was pretty good. I'm not a workrate fan because I've never wrestled a day in my life beside middle and high school. Just because A match goes 30, 45, or 60 mins doesn't make it a great match. I've watched a few CM Punk matches from ROH that went a while that werent very good and it was bc they went too long. There are some matches that I've enjoyed that have gone a while only bc they were entertaining and didn't show you 20 ways to put on a headlock or whatever. MY biggest problem with ROH is that in the past and even now, they use all these big moves and head drops to be kicked out of and use a roll up as a pin. Again, I'm not a workrate fan, but since Thomas is, why does that make any kind of since at all? If you are going to say the opponent used the big moves and head drops to "wear him down," save it. If you drop some one on their head, that should be it. Matches that do go that 15-20-25 min mark are really good and keep you entertained bc the guys are going hard for the most part and aren't losing their wind. I dislike fans who have NEVER wrestled a day in their life rating wrestlers in their matches. How can someone who has never wrestled rate a match or a wrestler? Because you have watched a lot of wrestling? That's crap. I think you can have a favorite wrestler or someone you think has good matches or what not, but that doesn't give you the right to critique any wrestler and their work rate. Khali isn't a wrestling machine, but he can be used in entertaining fashions. Jonh Cena had an entertaining match with him at One Night Stand a few years ago. I'm not aiming this at reporter Larry Goodman either because he simply reports the matches and ones that he thinks were good and not so good as his opinion. Hes not tearing guys a new one over workrate.

[Vic Venom]

Look, all I know is what I enjoy, and a majority of that Southern "wrasslin'" OMGZZ FAMILY-FRIENDLY!!~~ just doesn't cut it with me. Neither does sports-entertainment. I'm a fan of strong style and technical wrestling, but I can be open-minded to other things. And as a paying customer, you damn right I've got the right to critique.

[storey83]

But is the only reason you are paying to watch is to critique? Because and no offense, but most of what I read on other message boards is of workrate on ROH stuff and other various indy promotions. Guess what? You ARE a fan of Sports entertainment like it or not because wrestling is a sport and it entertains you. ROH entertains you. It entertains me to some degree, but it doesn't give you the right to bash on guys because you think they aren't any good. Ok, so you pay to see them...big deal. Sometimes I feel like people take that too far. "I pay to see you, I have the right to hate on you." Why? Because fans who rely heavily on workrate are usually only watching to critique it and find something wrong with it. Sit here and tell me you don't watch wrestling with the thought in mind to critique...because I think you would be lying. Wrestling was at its highest when people believed in its heroes of past. In the 70's and 80's it was huge. Don't get me wrong, I grew up in the 80's and 90's as a fan, but it was so great because you believed in those guys and your heroes. Now days, you just have people watching so they can critique it all to hell and thats where wrestling has gone wrong. The wrestling is still good. Sure, the stories aren't great but I think its because they are trying to too hard to please THE UNPLEASABLE wrestling fan. This whoel workrate thing has ruined wrestling in alot of ways bc you are too busy watching for screw ups instead finding the passion behind what they are trying to do for you. Just like people who watch football, baseball, basketball, ect....want to bash the athletes and what they do wrong on the field of play when they couldn't do any better what so ever. Most of the time the people who are bashing the guys are over weight or never was good at sports in the first place but watched enough to think they actually know something. Same in wrestling. Just because you watch it doesnt make you "smart" to what they do. I love wrestling and I appreciate what they do for my entertainment.

[kingofhearts]

I seem to Remember a 30 minute match Between Mike Jackson and The Nightmare back in 2007 in Carrollton

[Les Thatcher]

It takes time to tell an interesting, and detailed story that is the reason movies run 90 minutes or more and best selling novels are over 250 pages. It's also the reason Brisco/Funk Flair/Steamboat, or even Samoa Joe/Punk are remembered and talked about.
When one of my trainees ask Dean Malenko why he had retired, his answer was simply "I can't do what I do in five minutes." Nor can the young guys actually learn to work in short matches worked out in the dressing room. It doesn't push the performers creativity, athletic ability, or any of the things that have made the legends great. But... it takes either a talented leader or two talented wrestlers to pull off a lengthy bout.
I just came from Philly where I ran a weekend camp and the main event on the Saturday show was two cruiserwieghts who went about 25 minutes with none of the standard flip, flop, and fly stuff, held the crowd with no chants of boring, and built to a solid finish. This may have be the home of hardcore but that 25 minutes belonged to those two kids that actually know how to work.
In this day and age there are several styles and trains of thought, and varying numbers of fans for each, but the true art of the business is in building that type of match and taking the audience on an emotional roller coaster ride. WE can all paint by numbers, but those canvases won't be hung in any upscale gallery.
Sincerely,
Les

[Vic Venom]

Feb 4, 2009 10:56:46 GMT -5 Les Thatcher said:

It takes time to tell an interesting, and detailed story that is the reason movies run 90 minutes or more and best selling novels are over 250 pages. It's also the reason Brisco/Funk Flair/Steamboat, or even Samoa Joe/Punk are remembered and talked about.
When one of my trainees ask Dean Malenko why he had retired, his answer was simply "I can't do what I do in five minutes." Nor can the young guys actually learn to work in short matches worked out in the dressing room. It doesn't push the performers creativity, athletic ability, or any of the things that have made the legends great. But... it takes either a talented leader or two talented wrestlers to pull off a lengthy bout.
I just came from Philly where I ran a weekend camp and the main event on the Saturday show was two cruiserwieghts who went about 25 minutes with none of the standard flip, flop, and fly stuff, held the crowd with no chants of boring, and built to a solid finish. This may have be the home of hardcore but that 25 minutes belonged to those two kids that actually know how to work.
In this day and age there are several styles and trains of thought, and varying numbers of fans for each, but the true art of the business is in building that type of match and taking the audience on an emotional roller coaster ride. WE can all paint by numbers, but those canvases won't be hung in any upscale gallery.
Sincerely,
Les

First of all, Mr. Thatcher, how did you enjoy my hometown?

Is the show you're talking about the MBA benefit show?

And to storey83, you caught me in a bad mood having an even worse day yesterday. I don't buy DVD's or go to shows JUST to critique, although I do write the occasional online review and do just that.

Yes, I tend to defend ROH blindly at times, but those DVD's that I've bought over the years have taken me though some rough times in my life (deployments, economic struggles, loss of employment,etc., just to name a few). Even with the current regime doing what they do, I could never turn my back on the Red & Black.

You brought up Cena a few posts earlier. I've had some harsh things to say about his matches/promos/gimmicks in the past and will probably still do so, but I'm also not blind to the hard work and dogged determination that he puts into everything he does. In fact, I can name several matches of his that I've enjoyed, and "workrate" had little or nothing to do with it.

vs. Shawn Michaels, RAW May 2007. A perfect example of a lenghty match, the initial subject of this post.

vs. JBL, Judgment Day 2005. Every little thing they did had a rhyme and reason, and worked to perfection.

vs. Bobby Lashley, Great American Bash 2007. That match had absolutely NO business being as good as it was, let alone being one of the best of the night.

and all of the matches he had with Edge.

And as for what I said about Southern wrestling yesterday, again I was being my usual hotheaded self and only remembered the aspects of it that I disliked. Really, I think I'd be a regular attendee of Anarchy or GCW or SECW if I actually lived in that area. Thing is, I grew up in South Philadelphia and believed that hard-hitting, gritty, emotional wrestling lived and died at the Civic Center (NWA/WCW) or the Penn Hall (Tri-State) or the Arena (ECW/ROH). In a lot of ways, Southern wrestling isn't much different, just held in different crowds.

[Les Thatcher]

Thomas

It was the MBA benefit show, I enjoyed my time there, and the rest I have no clue what you're talking about. I never mentioned John Cena or anything about you buying DVD, etc, and that was my first post and this will be my last. I only wanted to comment on why I felt long matches were needed and that they were the art of the business. Didn't mean to set a fire under you and be blamed for comments I didn't make, and don't debate on message boards. I'm out.

Les

[Vic Venom]

Feb 4, 2009 14:28:46 GMT -5 Les Thatcher said:

Thomas

It was the MBA benefit show, I enjoyed my time there, and the rest I have no clue what you're talking about. I never mentioned John Cena or anything about you buying DVD, etc, and that was my first post and this will be my last. I only wanted to comment on why I felt long matches were needed and that they were the art of the business. Didn't mean to set a fire under you and be blamed for comments I didn't make, and don't debate on message boards. I'm out.

Les

It's ok, Mr. Thatcher. The rest was a continuation of a back-and-forth with someone else here in the thread. Around here you're something next to royalty.

[pandemic]

Les - Thanks for the insight!

I grew up on PNW wrestling in the 70s & early 80s and it was not unusual to see a feature match last 35-40 minutes.